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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:47 pm 
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The artist of Gantz uses a technique similar to that, or at least at one point he did - his assistants render the scene, along with the characters in it, and then he draws over it.

It's not a bad idea, actually - for my project, I've used Google Sketchup to create 3d models of settings so that I could just take a screenshot of it and trace over it to use as a background. Haven't tried that strategy with actual characters, though - mainly I just don't want to have to set up all my perspective guidelines over and over again :P

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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:03 pm 
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nyarlathotep wrote:
Drawing with a mouse isn't an issue. There have been a few people on this board who drew exclusively with a mouse that were very, very good (example: gridbug).

Oh, jeez, off topic, but I completely forgot about her!

And I'd agree with Nyar that it's a plausible idea. My favorite artist does that with architecture when the perspective gets complex. She makes the models by hand and then paints over them, though. What you want to do seems to lack a little integrity, though, because you didn't actually construct the models yourself. :/ I dunno.

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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:36 am 
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Celestial-Fox wrote:
nyarlathotep wrote:
Drawing with a mouse isn't an issue. There have been a few people on this board who drew exclusively with a mouse that were very, very good (example: gridbug).

Oh, jeez, off topic, but I completely forgot about her!

And I'd agree with Nyar that it's a plausible idea. My favorite artist does that with architecture when the perspective gets complex. She makes the models by hand and then paints over them, though. What you want to do seems to lack a little integrity, though, because you didn't actually construct the models yourself. :/ I dunno.



There were two things I said.

One was using poseable 3d models to help me with pose/body proportions. The same could be done by taking pictures of people in those poses.

The second was making my own 3d model that looks like manga/anime. With that, I take a screenshot, put it through a filter or two and I would have almost completed (character) drawing that only needs little touch to finish, something even I could do.


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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Sumenoe wrote:
Bardic-Dragoon wrote:
Sumenoe wrote:
I can't hold pens/pencils. Trying to forcefully hold one makes my hand shake and hurt a lot.


Not to say it's impossible to draw with less than perfect hands; but how the f*** are you drawing if holding a writing/drawing implement gives you aches/shakes/pains and what have you.

your hands having medical problems might be something to consider for your difficulty in drawing, not to say you seem to have other problems like by the sound of things you don't use guidelines ( those stickfigure things ( that is what you were talking about clafann1?) are over rated but you need some form of guidelines) your tendency to get way too frustrated and just general holes in your knowledge and understanding.



I draw with mouse. No big problems with that. Sometimes I can't draw a line the way I want but then I do it again or remove the part that is wrong and do that part again.

What? No you shouldn't even be doing digital work without any type of understanding of traditional work. Not to sound mean, but you aren't at a level where you should be touching any digital medium really.

Sumenoe wrote:
It doesn't need to be a Berserk manga but being too simple would totally kill the story and everything.


EDIT:

What do you think about the following idea: I buy some 3d program that comes with a human model or two. The model and it's parts are easily sizeable (like length of arms and legs) and easily and realistically poseable. I would put the 3d model in a pose I want my character to be in and take a screenshot. Then I would put that screenshot half transparent into a pose layer. Then I could draw lineart on another layer on top of it. I'm not talking about tracing lines but having a realistic pose and the right length for arms and legs. I could first draw a dummy/doll and then little by little turn it into a body/clothes.

I already know a bit about 3d, though not enough to create a 3d anime/manga character. I have seen real-time, animated, controllable 3d characters that look 90% like an anime character. The 3d world around them doesn't look like anime though. It's actually one of my long term plan to learn 3d modelling. I have already created some ugly, bad models and it seems that the only issue there is that I don't have experience yet or enough knowledge about the programs and 3d modelling. Those things can easily be fixed with time. Having a poseable characters that would require only a little photoshopping would make the process of making manga much easier for someone like me. It's better to spend a month on a random 3d character and then a day to put him on one and only page than spending 12 months drawing one box and then another 12 months for each time the appears on the page.


In other words you are going to spend more money then needed to copy someone else's work? Programs that come witrh the stuff you are talking about is clip art, that is not your own work and that's just the point of that.

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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:25 pm 
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Have you tried painting, Sumenoe? I know it's a bit more of a hassle than pencils, but the grip's different and a lot more relaxed.

Another pencil grip that isn't too good for manga/comics but works for charcoal and maybe manga-style illustrations would be the overhand grip, where you basically hold the pencil like a toothbrush. There's a lot less finger pressure involved there, too; you just have to get an easel or drawing board and prop it up to about 45 degrees. If you can't get minute detailing done with a pen grip it's possible that you could just increase the size of your canvas.


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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:42 am 
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To Blackmage

I am not copying anyones work. As I said, I am NOT tracing 3d models lineart. That would make no sense.

I could take a picture of myself and then use it as reference for arm/leg/body length. The drawing wouldn't look anything like me. It wouldn't have same clothes I do. It wouldn't have same hair style I do. It could be thinner or fatter, more or less muscular. Using easily poseable 3d model would just make the referencing faster and easier.


Also, there is not much difference between mouse drawing and traditional drawing. The only thing that comes to my mind is pressure. Other than that, everything can easily be done with a mouse and a right program. Maybe even that can be done somehow.


To Hamachi

I guess painting would be easier. However, my other problem makes that impossible. Because I turn into a mindless zombie when I try to draw, I rely a lot on the fact that I can easily remove everything I do and then do it again differently. Thats why photoshop is awesome. Layers and erasers. If I try to repaint on top of my every mistake, I run out of ink/paint. Oh those school days....


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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:29 am 
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Ok firstly the difference between traditional and and digital is the fact digital was developed mostly for PROFESSIONAL AND PRODUCTION WORK. DTraditional is also much harder to learn because digital has all these neat little tooks that halep you do this and that, while traditionally everything is needed to be controlled by a pencil and eraser.

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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:32 am 
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Sumenoe wrote:
I turn into a mindless zombie when I try to draw

Well, I think that might be your problem right there! (lol)

Seriously though, there's a kinesthetic side to drawing; i.e. "If I draw tons my marks will become more and more accurate," but there's also a mental side to it; i.e. "If I increase my understanding I'll know what I need to draw."

What you want to do is create an understanding of your subject so that you use your mind to actively figure out what shapes, textures, etc. need to be drawn instead of redoing your strokes over and over again until one happens to turn out right. I think Blackmage put it a bit harshly, but the thing he did get right about software is that it can tend to act like a crutch and gloss over your mistakes.

Ultimately, it's your mind that you draw with, not any specific body part. I suggest buying a drawing lesson book like Keys to Drawing so that by doing these exercises you can learn the elements of observation, and then plunge into the basics of perspective, light and shadow, sighting and proportion, etc.

Another thing. Lots of us are by nature perfectionists. I used to erase tons on my drawings, but I've gone for at least a year without using an eraser on a single one. Don't worry about whether your end product looks bad to your own standards or not - your goal is the active process of drawing, which you should be proud of whenever you improve.


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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:41 pm 
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But no matter how much I understand, it doesn't matter. All that goes down to toilet when I actually try to draw. All I see is a white screen and random words describing what I wanted to draw. They no longer have any meaning to me, unless I stop trying to draw.

When I draw, the only way for me to start is to draw a random line. If I believe it looks like something, I draw another random line. If it doesn't fit the original line, I remove it and do it 100 times again until it fits. Little by little, it either becomes a person, a scenery or maybe a space picture.

As I said, I turn into am mindless zombie when I draw. I can draw quite well in my mind. I know how to start and how to get to the finish in my mind. When I try to actually do it, my mind goes empty and I can't do it anymore unless I stop trying to draw.

I wish I could close my eyes, draw in my mind and all that happened in my computer.


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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:43 pm 
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Firstly no matter how random it looks, nothing is random in the work. When you draw you are actually designing in a space. Your problem is the mentality. You don't have the thought process behind art. How do you get this is a simple matter.

1. Draw from real life, I tell this to everyone because this I'd the beginning. Everything from ancient fantasy to sci fi is adaptation of real life. Some stuff it is harder to tell what the idea or design came from but it is.

2. Draw with reference, don't try to draw something whether it is creature or prop without reference

3. Take a art appreciation class or two, this helps you get into a better understanding of the mental process of many artist that came before you.

4 study the work of artist that came before you and try to recreate their work. Not just anime and manga but painters, disney artists, comic artist, and so on.

Also don't just run looking for tutorials to help because most don't and 90% of the free ones say the same shit. Get out there and just do it, no tutorial holds there magic bullet you seek

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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:56 pm 
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One thing I'll stress above everything else:

Look for information.

Before I say anything further, please know that I'm not trying to bash you in any way. I'm no pro, but I think a lot of people will agree with me when I claim that I'm trying to give some perspective. Again, I've also listened to lots of advice before finally getting what everyone meant, so I've also been in your shoes.

Are you sure you understand what you're drawing? How many hours have you spent studying the structure of human anatomy, copying it, and learning the proportions of bones, muscles, and facial features? Do you know what the elements of a good drawing are - proportion, cross-contour, perspective, light, and texture for example - and do you know what exercises you need to practice in order to employ and improve these elements in your drawing? Do you keep a mental checklist of how to observe a subject when drawing from life? If you've answered "no" to a single one of these questions, you don't know enough. I'll admit right now that I still don't know enough.

Yet I can assure you all the information you need to do well is out there. Buy at least one or two popular, well-rated art sources. It doesn't matter if they're drawing books, a set of videos or online memberships - buy it! Professional, purchased advice more often than not will be at least ten times as detailed, helpful, or long as anything else you get. It's not that everyone else isn't as good - it's that these artists get paid to do a good job at giving advice.

Ultimately though, there's no magical way to get good at drawing. You just need to have a love for it and a day-to-day basis of seeking out how to do it better. Don't be self-defeating and assume you'll always be a mindless zombie when you draw. If you seek out drawing techniques and actively practice them, you will improve.


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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:55 pm 
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Blackmage wrote:
Ok firstly the difference between traditional and and digital is the fact digital was developed mostly for PROFESSIONAL AND PRODUCTION WORK. DTraditional is also much harder to learn because digital has all these neat little tooks that halep you do this and that, while traditionally everything is needed to be controlled by a pencil and eraser.

Don't make me refutiate you(lol)

Synn, that is the most freaking retarded thing I've ever heard. I've been using Photoshop since age 8.
I'd venture to say that I'm quite a good artist, and I know for a FACT that I wouldn't even be half as skilled as I am now without digital art.

Usually I wouldn't stoop so low to say that something someone says is retarded, but honestly now. You have no idea what you're talking about. Get off your high horse and check yourself. You're not a pro. You don't have any clue of what a pro needs. Stop spitting out everything your professors and instructors feed to you in class.

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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:12 pm 
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Wait when did I say digital work had required no skill? I did not so don't even try to play that card cf. Digital is used in the industry because its easier for a environment artist to move a peiiceover to a character artist! And the character artist draw the characters into it without worry about damage or messing up the original background work. Its not a high horse its truth many people jump to digital art without spending time to build up their traditional skills when better traditional sills helps improve digital way better then just ignoring one and focusing on the other.

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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:05 pm 
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*sigh* Simply, quit telling us how you can't draw, and get out there and draw. Start a thread in the art section, draw what you can, start with the basics, and ask for pointers and help. It's easier to tell you what you're doing wrong, if we have something to look at. Like I may have mentioned, there are no short cuts in atistry, this skill takes dedication, practice, and over all passion to learn and observe more about it. If you simply don't have the passion, than you might as well be a lost cause IMO. You're young, you still have a lot of years, just get out and do it. Force your pencil to the paper, with passion comes determination... if you're determined enough, you can achieve anything! Don't know what to draw? Copy something, draw from life... i used to doodle all the time in the margins of my notebooks all through out grade school.. (got me into trouble too) it's constant dedication and passion like that, that makes us artists. And besides.. all the knowledge in the world is useless unless it's applied.. just remember that.

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 Post subject: Re: How can I draw?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:33 pm 
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Blackmage wrote:
Wait when did I say digital work had required no skill? I did not so don't even try to play that card cf. Digital is used in the industry because its easier for a environment artist to move a peiiceover to a character artist! And the character artist draw the characters into it without worry about damage or messing up the original background work. Its not a high horse its truth many people jump to digital art without spending time to build up their traditional skills when better traditional sills helps improve digital way better then just ignoring one and focusing on the other.

They take equal amounts of skill. The techniques are just different. You have to work equally hard to be skilled at sort of art form. A lot of traditional art techniques are somewhat transferrable to digital art, but starting in digital art will still set you slightly backward for a little while because it takes a different sort of skill set. If you improve in traditional, you'll improve in digitial (as you said), but if you also improve in digital, you'll improve in traditional. No one is ever "not ready" to start in digital art. You don't have to reach a certain level of traditional art skill to start and learn in digital art. What you learn in digital art can be bounced right back to paper/canvas/whatever. I almost never touch traditional media because of monetary costs and time, but whenever I do manage to paint something, I find myself improved, because I stay in practice with painting in Photoshop.

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