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 Post subject: is it too late...?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:44 pm 
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11 years minimum. please remember that number, it is going to be important here. at least that's the plan.

also this drawing may be useful but is not neccessary
Spoiler! :
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/namuda/MT/scan0003-1.png

known problems:
eyes are uneven
her left lip is slightly disproportionate to the right
the sleeve bottoms are too stiff ( all four of them)
spray paint can isn't immediatlly recogniable as such,as a result she doesn't seem to be holding it
her fingers have some issues (most notably the thumb, ring, and pinky finger)
her palm might be a little too small
silly goose may be a smidge too low, also text on shirt doesn't deform properly
bulge from hand in pocket looks too much like her hp being bent at an akward/impossible angle
armpit region of shirt feels unnatural


ok all that out of the way let's begin with the actual content here.

I've been trying to determine the heart of my problems with drawing; where does the interference of ennui and other broader life issues stop and the true problem begin. I'm not one hundred percent sure i have managed to get there, but i still have a strong feeling i'm in the right orchard, even if i'm barking up the wrong tree.

What would you say if told you i have never used reference or drawn from life. if you said i was lying you would be half right, and even then only from a technical 'absolute truth' standpoint, as opposed to a more practical view.

It's easy to say i have never used reference, and it's 99% accurate with that 1 percent being unintentional and indirect use that might not even count as having used reference. It's a bit harder to say i have never drawn from life as i have; but in all this time i could likely count the number of times on my hands alone, maybe i might need one foot at most. and of most of those i'm not even sure they count as it might be more 'using what was in front of me for inspiration' as opposed to actually drawing what was in front of me.

So why is this, honestly i don't know. there is no doubt a certain level of lacking any desire to do as such, but perhaps of greater importance is that i just don't get it. This is what i believe to be the heart of the problem.

There are a lot of seemingly basic ideas, concepts, and drawing exercises i just can't seem to wrap my head around. drawing from life, using reference, gesture drawings, thumbnail sketches. and those are just what immediately come to mind.

This seems to only be compounded by a certain level of a need to unlearn as much if not more than i need to learn. half the problem seems to come from a lack of, for lack of a better term, impulsiveness. In school i would always argue the necessity of needing to make rough drafts as by the time i start typing/writing i have already done a few dozen mental drafts and have reached a point where everything is organized in a logical and useful manor my word choice is essentially set in stone, alongside an edit as i write style or working when i finally put something in to some form of physical existence it's in shape to be done, not revised further (and usually teachers never have had much editing to suggest beyond minor gramme slip ups which seemingly proved my point)

from a lot, if not all, of what i have read on things like this you need the exact opposite mind set; a gesture drawing almost seems to be the by product of not thinking at all in the process, a thumbnail is it self supposed to be the thinking, drawing from life so often has time limits that don't give you time to think. add in all this time during which i have never used reference, which i have for practical purposes never drawn from life, and things seem a little futile

So is it futile ( likely not from how overbearingly positive you lot seem to be) and if not what do i do to proceed?

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 Post subject: Re: is it too late...?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:01 pm 
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You managed to get through the majority of your problems, but you failed to explain what you mean by '11 years minimum'. Is that how long you've been drawing? Or is that your goal for when you plan to debut as a professional? Since you didn't give an explanation, perhaps it wasn't as important as you originally thought? Some clarity on that would be nice.

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 Post subject: Re: is it too late...?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:09 am 
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i was so concerned making sure i mentioned it that i forgot to give it context... wonderous. It's how long i've been drawing for. The points where i made vague mentions of time, that was supposed to be placed in there, but i never explained that did i...

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 Post subject: Re: is it too late...?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:11 am 
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No, it's not too late -- but, of course, nobody's gonna say it's too late :P

The things you mentioned - drawing from life, references, gesture drawings - these aren't really simple. They're techniques for drawing that will probably never be perfected; as such, there's never a point at which it's too late to try them out.

You've probably tried the 30 second thing on Posemaniacs before, but I really think it's one of the best ways to use references to improve one's basic ability to draw humans. The only thing you can do in 30 seconds is capture the essence of a pose - and the simple act of trying to see what that 'essence' is is really what helps the most.

Judging from your drawing, you honestly aren't that bad at drawing stuff, but the anatomy and such - though drawn pretty adequately - are not too lifelike, so the overall feeling of it falls a bit flat. If you were to start off with the proper pose (i.e., a generally correct body in terms of proportion and so on), you could accomplish some really good stuff. So, again, in order to be able to start off with a good pose, I think it helps to try that 30-second pose thing - or maybe just draw from references in general.

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 Post subject: Re: is it too late...?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:15 pm 
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nyarlathotep wrote:
You've probably tried the 30 second thing on Posemaniacs before, but I really think it's one of the best ways to use references to improve one's basic ability to draw humans. The only thing you can do in 30 seconds is capture the essence of a pose - and the simple act of trying to see what that 'essence' is is really what helps the most.


yes, i have tried posemaniacs several times, heck i'm pretty sure i found that before joining this forum (which if i remember correctly i've been b****ing and trying to deduce my problems under the false pretense of asking for help on this forum for a good 2-3 years) but i could never get it, i tried messing with the time settings ( maybe i just need longer, maybe having less time will cause enough stress to kick me into gear) and still a good 90+% of the time i would walk off with a blank paper and abundant frustration after too long.

you may have indirectly nailed the problem; What exactly is the essence of a pose and how do you capture that. If thats all you have time for, and i don't even get what it is. That may be the broken circuit in the loop. So the question here ( which is more or less what i was getting at in the first place) is how do we fix that?

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 Post subject: Re: is it too late...?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:55 am 
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Bardic-Dragoon wrote:
you may have indirectly nailed the problem; What exactly is the essence of a pose and how do you capture that.

In a way, that's kind of like asking a guy what the essence of a silly goose is and why it gets hard every time you look at boobs (or other penises depending on your preference). Although the way it works is instinctively understood, explaining it to someone who has not experienced it/has little knowledge of it isn't the easiest of things to do. D:


Anyway, really, it sounds like you're over-thinking things waaaaaaaaaay too much and, as a result, it's hindering your progress. Rather than focusing on getting things perfect, you really should focus on breaking things down to understand them better. If you start by focusing on how parts of the anatomy work one part at a time rather than the body as a whole, you should be able to begin understanding how things work especially when you start bringing things together. As a warning, doing this can't be accomplished within a short period of time. It will take a long time and a lot of practice in order to start getting a more decent understanding of how things are supposed to be.

I'll give you a personal example: Three years ago, on a whim, I decided to go out to karaoke with some friends. Being the bookworm that I am, I had little experience with it so I thought it would be interesting to try and see. Although I chose songs that I knew fairly well, to put it simply, I was at a level more awful than awful. Although I had a little bit of knowledge about singing from music classes in school, I really didn't have much control over my voice and as a result I felt totally embarrassed each time my turn came around. Of all my friends, I was the worst. One of them, however, was incredibly good; he could sing freely and comparing myself to him was like comparing a chocolate popsicle to silly goose on a stick. I envied him immensely. Since that time, I found myself being dragged out to various karaoke places and facing the same frustrations that I had the first time. However, each time I did it, I would try various things to see if I could get my voice to match the tones that I had wanted. For the longest time, it was just one failure after the next. However, I kept going, kept trying to figure out how to get my voice to work the way I wanted. If one way didn't work, I tried another. If that didn't work, I'd try something else. Pitches, tones, breath control; basics of singing that I really didn't consciously understand were starting to become understood instinctively and, from there, I began building a small repertoire of songs that I would pretty much practice each time I went. In the past year, I found myself going more and more frequently excited to try a new song that I had been listening to. Although I'm still far from perfect, I'm almost a different person from who I was three years ago. There are still things I need to learn (like vibrato) and more songs that I want to try, but it'll never happen if I don't continue practicing and challenging myself to reach a new level. Although I'm still nowhere near the level of my friend, I no longer feel embarrassed by my singing and am quite eager to go whenever a chance arises.

Drawing is pretty much the same concept. It'll take many tries and many more failures (not to mention a silly goose of a lot of time) before you finally find a method that you feel works best for you. Failure is all part of the process so you shouldn't think so hard on them. Rather, you need to concentrate more on what you need to do to improve. If your current method isn't working then try something new and see where that goes. Even if it doesn't work out as you would like, it's still a valuable part of your learning experience.

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 Post subject: Re: is it too late...?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:33 am 
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Ceta wrote:
Anyway, really, it sounds like you're over-thinking things waaaaaaaaaay too much


And so again the Sun Rises in the east. Over thinking has become my Modus operandi recently, well it wasn't far from it in the past but it can seem worse at times recently.

setting that aside, most of what you said Ceta is (unfortunately) more or less what i was anticipating. However before moving on to the next stage of questions i planned (over-thinking can have it's uses no?) a few more immediate questions/ comments

1. the whole explaining the essence metaphor was so random it just deserves mention.

2. referencing your karaoke example, how do you suppose it would have all panned out if not for in your own words "I found myself being dragged out to various karaoke places" in other words, confronted by failure and with no reason or incentive to proceed forward (i'm assuming here that you were not an avid fan of Karaoke preceding these events). relating this back to my own matters though the desire to see my ideas executed is strong, desire to draw is all but nonexistent lately (perhaps a more direct reason for my problems, but having barked up that tree here before with no real results let's move on.)

Now moving on with the next stage of questions. though this may be bordering on life advice rather than art advice, that said any advice on not over-thinking matters, preferably to an artistic slant as i still hold that it doesn't hold more than minor inconvenience in any other aspect of my life.

thank you in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: is it too late...?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:21 am 
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Bardic-Dragoon wrote:
1. the whole explaining the essence metaphor was so random it just deserves mention.

My mind is very random, especially after I've had a long day at work. Things like that are to be expected sometimes.

Quote:
2. referencing your karaoke example, how do you suppose it would have all panned out if not for in your own words "I found myself being dragged out to various karaoke places" in other words, confronted by failure and with no reason or incentive to proceed forward (i'm assuming here that you were not an avid fan of Karaoke preceding these events). relating this back to my own matters though the desire to see my ideas executed is strong, desire to draw is all but nonexistent lately (perhaps a more direct reason for my problems, but having barked up that tree here before with no real results let's move on.)

In a way, how I started in karaoke was much like how I started art. I was forced into it after a horrible experience with journalism in high school. (The teacher in charge was a total bastard, to put it simply, and robbed me of my desire to continue. Though there's more to the story, for the sake of keeping things short, I'll just leave it at that.) Unfortunately, there really weren't many options for me at the time; I wasn't qualified for sports due to my small stature and not bright enough for any of the academic groups so after bouncing around for a bit I found myself at the doorstep of the art room. Because my true desire was in writing, drawing/painting/etc wasn't of much interest to me at the time especially since I had little talent. However, I found that the more I did it, the more it became enjoyable. It was very difficult at first since it took a lot of time to get the basics down, but with the help of my classmates I was able to find a decent start point to my studies and much inspiration to wish to continue. Although I was still pretty awful by the time I graduated, the experience that I had gained there was enough to encourage me to continue pushing forward. (The same holds for karaoke. While I did dread it in the beginning, the more I began to develop in skill, the more eager I became to attend.)

Anyway, that aside, you need find yourself some inspiration and set some goals for yourself. Make your goals simple and work your way from there. If you don't have something to motivate you and guide you in the direction you wish to go, then you're just going to be going around in circles indefinitely. Once you know what you want, then it's all a matter of trial-and-error to figure out how to get there.

Quote:
Now moving on with the next stage of questions. though this may be bordering on life advice rather than art advice, that said any advice on not over-thinking matters, preferably to an artistic slant as i still hold that it doesn't hold more than minor inconvenience in any other aspect of my life.

thank you in advance.

Anything can hold importance based on how you view it. Whether it's directly related or indirectly related doesn't really matter as long as there is something to be learned. I can't make you see things the way I do, however; I can only say things in hope that my point will be understood. Although it seems to have failed with you, I do hope that it helped someone else who has been reading this.

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 Post subject: Re: is it too late...?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:39 pm 
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Ceta wrote:
I can't make you see things the way I do, however; I can only say things in hope that my point will be understood. Although it seems to have failed with you,


I am failing to see what i did not understand (though really if i didn't understand it, than how would i know i didn't)

What i got from your post

1.The essence of a Pose is hard to explain, also you are bizarre and random in the best way

2.I over-think things (something of a duh statement if you knew me in real life) and i should focus on the smaller matters rather than the whole (which though i am not the most persistent at it i have been doing for some time; approximate range of motion at each joint on the body, relative size and position of body parts, what some of the major influencing muscles are and why they are a major influence, etc...)

3. keep at it and over time you will get better ( true, but as i raised the question of no will or real desire to keep at it anymore, which also you only half of answered my question admittedly you answered the more useful half, though i will say having no friends that share my like of drawing or any goal other than to have fun with drawing again i seem to be in a different scenario than you)

The question of advice on not over thinking was first indirectly asked in my first post, and although i said i wanted a more artistic slant later on, if all the artistic slant you have is what you said before ( looking at the smaller details etc..) than ignore that comment and give me the best general 'don't over-think it' advice you have. over-thinking things is not all bad, but even if drawing is the only major victim, there are many much lesser victims than it. This leaves the bad out weighing the good in number if not severity.

edit: Additional thought, isn't breaking things down into smaller parts the essence of over thinking, you break it down until you either cannot comprehend the scale, or till you cannot break it down any further and then use the resulting variables to deduce the solution

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 Post subject: Re: is it too late...?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:26 am 
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Sorry for the late reply. Things have been pretty rough lately and, as a result, staff meetings have been taking much longer to complete than expected (killing much of my free time in the process). Anyway, on to my reply.

Bardic-Dragoon wrote:
1.The essence of a Pose is hard to explain

It is, but can be done. Unfortunately, it's one of those things that will take much time to do and much effort to make sure that you're progressing in the right direction. Sadly, my time and resources are very limited so doing so would put more stress/burden on me than I need right now.

Quote:
also you are bizarre and random in the best way

Thanks.....I think. 6(o_o)

Quote:
2.I over-think things (something of a duh statement if you knew me in real life) and i should focus on the smaller matters rather than the whole (which though i am not the most persistent at it i have been doing for some time; approximate range of motion at each joint on the body, relative size and position of body parts, what some of the major influencing muscles are and why they are a major influence, etc...)

Since you seem to want to know things more in detail, then it would be best to study things piece-by-piece before slowly putting it all together. While this method isn't 100% guaranteed to work due to the fact that I don't know what learning methods work best for you, in the case that it doesn't I suggest trying to figure out what methods work best for you so that you can begin making the progress you are hoping for.

Quote:
3. keep at it and over time you will get better ( true, but as i raised the question of no will or real desire to keep at it anymore, which also you only half of answered my question admittedly you answered the more useful half, though i will say having no friends that share my like of drawing or any goal other than to have fun with drawing again i seem to be in a different scenario than you)

Keeping at it is only one part of it. The biggest point about this is to figure out why you failed in the first place (though it's possible to do this by yourself, it generally works better if you have someone who can tell you what you're doing wrong and what needs to be fixed) and make the necessary effort to solve this problem. You may need to try something different/new in order to fix this, but it's through this that you will really begin to develop your skills. In addition, the more you do outside of the style that you've set as your goal, the more versatile of an artist you'll become.

Quote:
The question of advice on not over thinking was first indirectly asked in my first post, and although i said i wanted a more artistic slant later on, if all the artistic slant you have is what you said before ( looking at the smaller details etc..) than ignore that comment and give me the best general 'don't over-think it' advice you have. over-thinking things is not all bad, but even if drawing is the only major victim, there are many much lesser victims than it. This leaves the bad out weighing the good in number if not severity.

The biggest problem you face, from what I've seen in this post and a few of your previous posts, is that you're getting tripped up by your over-thinking. Over-thinking is not a bad thing if it allows you to focus more on what you need to do to accomplish your goals, but when you're focusing on the wrong things and slowing down your progress/bringing it to a complete stop, that's when you really need to try to take a step back and simply let things flow. For an artist, failure is as just as necessary as practice; realizing why you failed and doing what you can to make sure you don't repeat your mistakes is the most important part of getting to your goal. Unfortunately, if you're getting too wrapped up in your errors and not getting the practice you need, you're not going to get anywhere.

One good thing is to get into the practice of seeing a picture through to the end. Even if it's awful in your mind, keep working on it and resist any urges to crumple it up and toss it into the trash. If you aren't able to finish it, then try to do as much as you can and post it online for people to critique. Using those critiques, continue working on the picture. Don't be surprised if it doesn't turn out like you had originally planned it to; not all things go according to plan and you'll likely find yourself adjusting the picture a lot before you finally finish. (Which is fine since this happens to a lot of artists regardless of whether they are beginner or professional.)

Quote:
edit: Additional thought, isn't breaking things down into smaller parts the essence of over thinking, you break it down until you either cannot comprehend the scale, or till you cannot break it down any further and then use the resulting variables to deduce the solution

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

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 Post subject: Re: is it too late...?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:47 pm 
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Wow ceta that really gave me some tips :) not exactly to my flaws but It really helped (especially this part) One good thing is to get into the practice of seeing a picture through to the end. Even if it's awful in your mind, keep working on it and resist any urges to crumple it up and toss it into the trash. If you aren't able to finish it, then try to do as much as you can and post it online for people to critique. Using those critiques, continue working on the picture. Don't be surprised if it doesn't turn out like you had originally planned it to; not all things go according to plan and you'll likely find yourself adjusting the picture a lot before you finally finish. (Which is fine since this happens to a lot of artists regardless of whether they are beginner or professional.)--------

thank you :D

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